Ilyas

So welcome back to “YES, ALL MEN!” Our guest today is Rick Goodwin from Manning healing. So Rick, can you give us a quick introduction of yourself?

Rick Goodwin

I’m a social worker by training, being here in the Ottawa area for the last. Couple of decades if done more working on men’s issues. And I currently manage uh mental health clinic here. Uh called men and healing ecotherapy for men we provide. Offerings in terms of therapy, individual and group therapy for guys and as well we provide training on issues like male sexual trauma and that’s mostly my role at this time to provide training too. Community groups, agencies, government services on issues of male victimization.

Ilyas

Perfect. Thank you. And so as we kind of jump in what sort of challenges do you see men kind of come to your practice with or come in to your your organization with and how does that kind of tie into their expression of masculinity?

Rick Goodwin

Yeah, that’s a big one. I’d say that for the large part, men come to us in some state of crisis. Not too many guys will call us up to say, hey, you know, I’m I’m looking pretty good life. I just want to make it a little bit better bigger. Uh. Or what have you. So it it takes a lot I think for men to reach a breaking point in terms of reaching out for help reaching out for for therapy in that regard. And so whatever that presenting issue may be could be unresolved issues from their past, could be issues of. Anger management or emotional regulation. Break up of relationships. It it could be a number of presenting factors, but basically by the time the fellow picks up the phone. He’s a bit tapped out in terms of his available resources to address the issue and that’s where I think we come in.

Ilyas

And so, as these men are kind of coming in, you’re mentioning that there’s there’s usually some sort of breaking point or some kind of catalyst for them to come in. Yeah. And you also mentioned kind of. For a lot of men, there’s like trauma, and that’s a a big piece of what you work in as well. And so is are the two related there are there is there kind of a relation between like a history of trauma and potentially like having that breaking point where they might come into therapy?

Rick Goodwin

I would say that there has been. I mean there’s just there’s historical issues that the men carry forward. Now whether that’s capital T trauma. Like say for example you know childhood sexual abuse or whether it’s more of a smaller tea promise just, you know. Walton was not perfect, and maybe the the individual we’re talking to didn’t have a a comfortable childhood. Maybe his. His needs weren’t always met by his parents. Maybe there was some conditions attached to getting his needs met. These are often what resurfaces, even though the. With the presenting issue may be decades later in the file’s life, so part of our work and then we can call it like time traveling. We address the issues currently, but we find the roots of it. We source the roots of it in the past, and so we go from past to present and and back and forth to to work towards integration. Of of, of of those issues.

Ilyas

Amazing. And I imagine all of this is really tied into like the expectations or the kind of experiences of being a man, that the man who is coming in has right like. The ways in which they’ve learned to either express or withhold their emotions, or their ability to have, like reached out for supports in the past, or even like the the courage that it takes to reach out for that potentially initial time to your organization.

Rick Goodwin

Yeah, it it it it. It isn’t like those issues are approached on intellectual basis. Those say constrictions or forces of masculinity on the individual who’s approached us and. And yet. Yeah, they’re not intellectual issues, but they’re they’re so pertinent to the work ahead that it’s it’s, it’s endemic. I mean, they’re very little could say that I’m working with and isn’t connected to these broad influences of masculine. Today, to whatever degree, even if you think that the whole notion of what therapy is about therapy involves 2 core questions, one is do I have a problem? Now having having a problem. Much like acknowledging uh. That one is carrying some wounds and is the polar opposite of conventional masculinity. Conventional masculinity suggests some sort of. Error of invulnerability. That’s that’s what it really means to be a guy in a conventional sense. You can look at the structures of that invulnerability. Well, if you’re invulnerable, then you can’t have problems because. This goes goes for goes. Goes with the with the term. The other half of the equation though is asking for help. And again, back to masculinity. Part of. Conventional masculinities to be stoic, that we solve our own problems, that we, you know, we’re we’re entities on our own, we’re not interdependent. So if that’s if a man is beholden to those those views, then he had asked. So. Right there. We’ve got. We’ve got issues of masculinity even before uh, that first session wraps up.

Ilyas

Thank you. And I’m just gonna hit pause for a second. Can you move your your microphone a little bit? Uh.

Rick Goodwin

Yeah, I don’t know if it’s. I mean. It’s up and down, but it seems to be.

Ilyas

That’s that’s good. If it’s, if if you move it up a little bit more.

Rick Goodwin

Up her.

Ilyas

Yeah, that’s perfect. OK, OK. Yep. Awesome. So I’ll we’ll jump back in. This will get edited out on so when when we’re talking about these kind of like issues to do with masculinity that come in even before that first session on how, how do you go about addressing those in those sessions because there there must be some sort of pushback for them to even have made that. First call against these sort of traditional ideals, and so when you’re kind of like in sessions or talking about these sorts of masculinities with organizations or other men, like how? How does that pushback happen? How does that? How does one? Move away from more traditional masculinities or this idea of invulnerability towards being able to look for and accept help.

Rick Goodwin

You got a couple of questions there. Let’s maybe pull it down a little bit. If a fellow is has approached us to seek help, then then he he’s already done some work at challenging that notion of invulnerability and challenging the the. Exploring the notion of asking for help to to, to help resolve those issues for him. So there’s already movement there. And yet what we know from conventional therapy, you know, which is a vector of, you know, of of the Human Services that is. Needs to be said that you know most clients of psychotherapy in Canada are female. It’s about a 2/3, one third ratio and then most service providers in the sector are female as well. So so right there, we know that the therapeutic process is not necessarily. One that is engineered for men, or even the stereotype of what therapy is about, it is going to be conducive. The we to address those issues relies upon them, kind of the standards of of establishing trust. And establishing relative emotional safety. In the relationship between the therapist and the client. Now that that’s a universal one, it doesn’t like men need safety and trust in women. Don’t. But how we achieve safety and trust may have a different. Flavor. It may go at a different pace. We may have to talk more about what to expect, what one can expect in the therapeutic process. Because again, it’s either the man that does not have experience in that domain, or he carries with him a lot of stereotypes, or. Kind of, yeah. Stereotypes, ways of thinking of therapy is that it’s not going to be necessarily more. In fact, it could be, could run roadblocks to where he could get out of the experience so. Well, the safety and trust. Discusses the actual relationship between the two people. We can’t forget about these aspects of masculinity that can impede the relationship building.

Ilyas

So in a sense, there’s a lot of foundational work that needs to be done before you can even start to address some of the things that the the man might be coming looking for help with just to. Be able to kind of undo some of the socialization or some of the the norms that have been put. Upon him.

Rick Goodwin

Mm-hmm.

Ilyas

So that he can really engage in the process in a way that’s helpful for him as a, as a man who has kind of gone through a different experience than the traditional kind of like. Therapeutic setting accounts for, yeah.

Rick Goodwin

It it doesn’t truly matter then whether the the fellow is a victim of violence, or he may have, he may have may have been a perpetrator of violence. For any change to occur, we have to have a foundation of safety and trust in the relation. So that requires some soft skills, obviously, but it also requires A deeper understanding of the journey he’s been on. Up until that that session. So the years, if not decades of how he has carried himself. How he has managed these issues, what have been his coping mechanisms along the way? Has he ever practiced a new strategies of? Of trying to manage what he’s what he’s facing, all those type of questions are going to be critical for establishing a both rapport as well as a blueprint of the of the work ahead.

Ilyas

And so let’s let’s imagine we’re talking to the man who’s in this kind of therapeutic setting. Do you ever? Do you ever tell him, like, this is what a healthy masculine entity looks? Like is there like a specific goal that you work towards in terms of like how they express or how they kind of embody their their status of being a man or is it kind of more fluid? Is it more of a just kind of dynamic process of trying to figure out like what’s going on?

Rick Goodwin

I think you’d find a difference between individual therapy and group therapy on that. Yeah. In terms of individual therapy, it would be, it would be much more fluid. There’s no doubt about that in Group therapy, depending on the groups and we’ve run a number of group therapy programs here in Ottawa, trauma recovery, childhood, childhood abuse experiences, we have an anger management program. We have another program of emotional growth called. Emotional integrity. Then we have a program for. And we have relatively compulsive sexual patterns, sexual behavioral patterns, and we call sexual integrity on those programs because they all have a foundation of what we call psychoeducation learning content to them that we do explore some of the issues. Inherited masculinity. In the content of those programs. And yet. I’m going to say it’s not. It doesn’t necessarily resonate deeply with guys, it’s. Their experience of that content is like an intellectual exercise. And yet, the moment that intellectual exercise is over for them, and it gets back into the minutiae of their life or their what they’re facing. These these core elements of masculinity are just embedded in in what what the guys have to say. So. That’s a challenging 1. We can’t approach it like uh. I don’t know like a group educational forum where we would play around with these. Concepts. Maybe we could be accused of intellectualizing them, maybe on a sociological basis. That doesn’t work and yet. We do need to have the man. Maybe through through more of an organic process look at UM. Revisiting, reformulating their masculine identity. In part to find an opening for them to make the changes that they want to make in their lives, you know, bottom line, to live a happier and healthier life. So yeah, yeah, it it, it is. It is a big challenge and of how to do that with with. And again different flavors individually or in Group.

Ilyas

Of course. And if we talk a little bit about group therapy for a second, I think from my understanding, there’s a really positive element of having a bunch of men in a room together because that way you don’t just create the trust and safety between, let’s say, like the therapist and the. The person, the client, the person receiving kind of services, but you have like a group of men forming like a. A shared sense of norms is that is that a fair thing to say? Is that like a something that you’ve seen happen?

Rick Goodwin

Certainly. And I’m I I would put in the ingredient of of facilitated discussion like any group of people, it needs structure, it needs organizing, it needs rituals it needs. Andries Dirt, when finished, so the facilitation process, which is one of the responsibilities of the group therapist, is, is critical to ensure that the focus of the group stays on topic versus straying to many potentially many possible distractions to the. To the group focus. You do that in the right atmosphere and you know amazing things can be accomplished.

Ilyas

And so then. If if these kind of like amazing things can happen in groups and I imagine in individual therapy too, cause that sense of trust and and mutual safety is something I understand to be like hugely important. So if that can all kind of happen it what’s the what’s the goal for? Like let’s say. These psychoeducational groups, if it’s kind of avoiding intellectualization if it’s really trying to get like some information across, like what? What sort of masculinity, if there is one, or if there’s, like like a spectrum or however it’s framed. Like, how do you frame moving towards like a a more helpful version of masculinity than someone might be expressing in that? Moment.

Rick Goodwin

Hmm I could. I think 1 concept that we can incorporate in older group programming and individual work as well that resonates again regardless of the persons presenting issues. And it’s a concept called emotional integrity. Now the emotional integrity is a very simple yet profound way of. Carrying oneself in this world, then. I can just talk to the guys about it, they told him. You all know this. Nothing about emotional integrity is new or foreign. It’s just really. It’s how it’s framed. Ohh if I can, I’ll outline the three steps of emotional integrity. First step being. To enact any type of change in ones life, one has to. Be bluntly honest with themselves. What’s going on, and this may be not the most comfortable reflection, but it’s what are these things. What’s going on in your thoughts and in your in your heart? You know your behavior and. Are you being wide open or are you not putting on any blinders or to not examine aspects of? Your life that may be hidden or secretive. That’s the first step, and that’s asking a. Lot. And and yet nothing can really change unless. Someone takes on and embraces that first step. If if a fellow can take on that first step and achieve it, then he can move on to Step 2. But you can’t do Step 2 without step one. OK, so let’s talk about Step 2 now. Step 2 involves A profound sense of responsibility. Of ownership of behavior of one’s behavior, and yet also ownership of one’s feelings. Now again. There’s, like people haven’t heard that before. The behavioral part is what we expect. You know, we we tell children, you know, you make a mess, you clean it up. If you use a dirty dish, you put it away. So that, that, that, that notion of responsibility is, is core there now the more? I’ll pause there if you embrace the second step. Emotional integrity, then you can’t. You can no longer say. Ohh. You know I did that. You know, I was kind of drunk at the time. And and making that excuse. So you can’t say ohh. You know whoever Mary she presses my buttons. Uh, no. You know, there’s obviously Mary doesn’t somehow. Do something to make you become angry. You you have to. Own that yourself. You can’t say, oh, I don’t know why I did that, you know. No, that’s not going to be good enough. If one truly embraces the second step. And I think it’s even more difficult in terms of ownership on an emotional level. So we there are many, many difficult emotions out there and aren’t terribly trained at emotional expression of those vulnerable emotions as much as like women. But yeah, we we shoot for full ownership. So if you even if you don’t know what’s going on within you. You need. To. Say that you need to. You can’t fluff it off or pretend you, you know, it’s it’s of no consequence. That’s what often conventional therapy is step one and Step 2. Uh. And it’s slow to work. If someone can master the 1st 2 steps then it allows them to move on to the third step. And so this is going to see the most challenging of all. Now to do the third step. The requirement is that you have to come up with a list of people you you believe are significant. Whoever they may be. It might be your partner, it might be your kids. It might be your best buddy. It might be. Other family neighbors, coworkers. What have you. That list of significant people in your life, there’s the only person who comes up with that is yourself. I can’t determine that for anybody. That’s gotta be truly owned, and that list may have two two names on it and might have 20 names on it. Again, no ones to judge each other. This is how we we live our. Lives. So if you got your list now, those people, those those people. Chances are we’re not talking about the. I don’t know the clerk at the convenience store. That problem, but who knows, maybe it is. I mean, you know, again not to judge, but with those people now your task is now to lessen. The emotional distance the fellow holds with these significant people. Now we’re we’re we’re doing this, we’re talking this through. We’re not on camera, but I’m I’m holding my hands out and I’m fully bringing them together as in physical proximity, getting physically close. But the issue here is emotional closeness, not physical intimacy, not sexual. If the fellow can take this on. Then this is where the magic really end. Now. I think this third step is harder from it, in part because it requires men to soften. They’re emotional or they’re they’re masculine presentation. If you think of part of conventional masculinity as, you’ll portray a mask or a way of an outward face to. To those people around us, well, that’s going to require the mask now dropping. It’s gonna require vulnerability. It’s gonna require emotional intimacy. And that’s going to be feel foreign for a number of guys. If, however, the fellow can do all three. Then that takes them to a very, I gotta say, a very good place. And we could still use the same analogy, whether he’s been a victim of violence, whether he has hurt others in his in his life. Emotional integrity, then, is a beautiful code of of, of life, and men. The men I’ve worked with over the years take well to it.

Rick Goodwin

I’ve had guys say, you know, I don’t wanna just want to recover from my childhood abuse. I want to live a life. I can say that holds integrity. You know, and it’s and it’s beautiful because it’s allowing them to now transcend not just to deal with the. Issues or coping mechanisms or frustrations they have from that original issue, but it allows them to transcend themselves. Whether that be you know, to be a better man, to be the the, the the father figure that maybe he didn’t have when he was a kid. Yeah, it allows. It allows people that that. To get to, that’s what I will call that that special place. And I think for men to know that there is an outcome that will address their desires for living that. Happier, healthier life? That’s like another key component to the work.

Ilyas

That’s huge, and there’s a lot to unpack there. And the things that really stood out to me were like the idea of responsibility being this kind of positive force for connections and like being able to take responsibility for your actions is also taking responsibility for, like, connecting with the people around you who you feel are important. And this idea of softening your heart. Innocence, right? So like a lot of the time when people talk about traditional masculinity, they say, like, you have to harden your heart. You have to kind of, like, steal yourself to the world. But then this process of, like, being able to connect with each other and have that emotional integrity is the softening the vulnerability of the ability to like.

Rick Goodwin

Mm-hmm.

Ilyas

Or meaningful kind of close contacts with other people and.

Rick Goodwin

Mm-hmm.

Ilyas

The last thing I wanted to just mention there and maybe you can expand on it as well, is that this idea of like post traumatic growth, I think that’s what you’re kind of gesturing to with the, the being able to grow after a trauma like not wanting to be just like recover from it but to have like a positive kind of impact on the world because you were able to work through and overcome. Trauma. Is that like a fair thing to say?

Rick Goodwin

It is, but it requires some some parameters to it that post traumatic growth, that notion that we can kind of become. You know, used to be an old laundry detergent saying you you use this soap and your clothing becomes brighter than bright, you know, but we can, we can go beyond symptom symptom reduction. That may well happen to men and in the in in the program, but not necessarily so, and so the concern here is not to set the. Hurdle. Too high not to set the task flow that we’re creating. A relative sense of failure for men who can’t achieve that. Uh. Still, what you’re getting at though is probably is another way of describing. What men could expect on this journey, whether they have big T trauma or small T trauma?

Ilyas

And then maybe we can linger on that connection piece because in those three stages that you’ve mentioned, it’s the hardest and it’s like the most meaningful in a sense, cause it’s like the one that actually brings you into connection with those who are important with you for you. And like with you throughout your life so.

Rick Goodwin

Right.

Ilyas

When we’re talking about this connection. Like how? How does a man form those bonds? How does he soften his heart to be able to like, connect with someone? Is there a process of listening or is there a process of just like how does that responsibility manifest in being able to form those deeper, longer lasting, more meaningful connections?

Rick Goodwin

So now I can we. I’ll respond to that question intellectually first, which is that we know as people, you know, we we are we are wired for social connection. It’s the only way we’ve survived is this species on this planet, you know really. 98% of her time, maybe more, was spent, you know, in small groups of people on the plains of Africa trying to eco survival. Group of I don’t know, 30 or 50 of us, you know, each day we had to figure something to eat and not get eaten. And you know, and that’s how we survived. So it required us to be intrinsically connected to each other, you know, to say that we are pack animals, that we’re tribal people. These are not overstatements and yet so much of conventional society, let alone conventional masculinity, would. Would run opposites to that. The. You know the the the notions like poor masculinity suggests that. You know, we’re islands on to ourselves that were that men don’t really rely upon others. That’s if that’s conventional masculinity, then that’s gonna take some work to overcome that. The competitiveness between men to try to achieve a higher stature or social standing has to be overcome. Our go to reliance upon aggression and violence has to be overcome. Are are oppositional energies? Can Mitchell, masculinity to those energies that are being held by the folks in the queer community, have to be overcome? The oppositional energies of perceptions of femininity is only could be held. With female identifying people have to be overcome. Well, that’s true, and that’s at a real head level. I think now in terms of men seeking change. I think the. One of the core experiences we can offer these men is to to sit in circle with other men. Other men who have shared experiences are working towards a shared goal. Again, anger management trauma recovery. Living a life sexual life with, with, with, with authenticity. Even just being a better dad. These are what holds groups together and what we find is a really interesting and, you know, in my magical moment, if you want to call it that, the men are very quick regardless of the group. Identity the men are really quick at forming connection with each. And not only connection, but I’m gonna say that they they’re quick to show compassion for each. Statements like you know? Oh, yeah, yeah. I’ve been there. You two, you know, like, well, you know, we give each other strength sometimes. You hear the men call other group members brothers. The connection and compassion can come quickly, in part because I’m going to say much of the many of those men are just starved for. In their regular non non therapy lives, right. So when they’re in an atmosphere like that, it’s new and it’s engaging and they’re they’re they’re drawn to it. Now the the the magic. The Magic I think is this. Yes, the guys as a whole developed. Express compassion, deep compassion for each other. When the penny drops and this is not an intellectual exercise, this is a deep, profound aha when the. Penny drops for a fellow when he realizes I can give so much of myself. Compassionate energy to these others all around me, and yet I can’t do that for myself. That is a moment of profound shift. It’s like the compassion that has gone outwards can now be considered. Ohh I can do this myself as well. Which is probably going to be the most important aspect of changing out of a shame dynamic and so many men carry. A lifetime machine for the coming to therapy. I mean, apart from the shame of that, we know abuse. Incurs. We can just talk about the shame of being men. Ourselves because. A good chunk of what conventional masculinity is about is truly unattainable. And you put anyone in a situation where they are constantly not being able to achieve what is expected of them. You will find a shame response. So we can say then we’ve got a, a socially constructed shame of men in this society and then there may be additional shame loads that the men carry into programming because of their own background. Their family of origin, bad things happening to them, and how that often is internalized.

Ilyas

And I know you’ve talked about shame in the past as being kind of like the the hardest emotion to experience, right? Like it’s it’s not like a it’s not an easy thing. It’s not something that is like. Coped with well very often for people who don’t kind of do deep work and sort of like being able to show themselves this compassion. And it seems like you’re offering kind of compassion and that self compassion especially, but even kind of compassion amongst kind of that circle of men who the man might kind of go in with. Because. An antidote to that sort of spiral of shame and all the associated actions and emotions that can come along with that.

Rick Goodwin

Yeah, maybe if I can just adjust a couple words. If we wanted to find the opposite to a a shame state. We would probably be, we’d probably be using the word dignity. So maybe dignity is the opposite of shame. Now how do we get to dignity where we get there is through self compassion. So it all kind of dovetails together in terms of the the work ahead for a man’s seeking therapy. And and part of that is because shame is so stubborn. All that the master emotion for for a reason or. More, more painful, heavier than any other emotion that makes guilt seem. Relatively lightweight emotion in comparison. No, we we know people can be racked with guilt throughout their lives.

Ilyas

Yeah. And I think that that distinction is really important too, of like feeling like you’ve. Done something that’s not in line with your values versus being kind of like a bad person, so to speak, right, versus really guilt versus shame and.

Rick Goodwin

Right.

Ilyas

I I want to kind of go take a step back for a second and if we look at. Men who are entering into this space. And they’re engaging with these other men in ways that, like, show that that that the man himself can experience self compassion because he can express that compassion to others. And you mentioned that’s like the penny drop moment like. The deep shift.

Ilyas

So. Is that what it takes for groups of men to like, heal themselves and to heal from this kind of collective? Not being able to achieve the expectations put upon us is like. Being able to come together and recognize that we’re all trying to. Live a good life, better life. However you want to frame it and that we can support each other and that we’re not, as you mentioned, like islands unto ourselves, but we’re actually part of that deeper set community. Is that a fair thing to say?

Rick Goodwin

Yeah, I think it is. And then again it. I think what you said would be true for regardless of the presenting issue. In in the men’s life. So if you think of presenting issue is a pattern of anger, rage. Possibly being violence, particularly with loved ones. You know from child punishment onwards, partner assault. They’re going to have to find themselves and and and they’re men cannot change under those patterns. So unless they do find a place of holding themselves with dignity. And you know, we know that this is a relatively not terribly safe world for male emotionality. If some fellow was opening up about all these issues that we’ve just been talking about. You know, probably the most. Characteristic rebuttal or comment others may make of him is it is is, you know, it’s that’s toxic masculinity. I mean, like. Wow, OK, we’re now at, you know, society is involved in active name calling men who are in a process of struggle. Of course, we all have to take responsibility in this world, but you know so much of our our social language is not helping. And change. I think what we know of the shame response. Shame, you know, if you feel shame. Essentially, we want to disappear. You know, I don’t know last of you and I go to a party there. Here’s a funny little example. A party I don’t. Few dozen people in the room. We entered the room at the same time. And I’ll I’ll use my cell phone. Won’t pick on you. My my fly isn’t that. OK. So we go into the room and everyone’s talking and then someone sees me at the corner of there and says look at Rick and he’s flying low and and as he says, that person says that other people. Comment. Point their fingers and laugh. I mean, there’s, that’s just, I’m going to feel shame. That’s an episodic shame, but it’s still a shame. Now first question. Well, I want to hang out with these people again. Well, I want to go with you to party. No freaking way. Shane makes us want to disappear. Sure. And and if we can’t disappear physically. And as children, we can’t. We never were able to disappear physically. If you’re physically abused at home, if you’re emotionally abused, if you’re sexually abused, children don’t have that. Agency to disappear physically, but people disappear psychologically. So let’s go back to the situation of you and I. Going into that room and people pointing their finger at me and laughing at me and whatever I could say to you. Yeah, like, yeah. And I’m. I’m. I’m kind of stupid that way. I’m always I’m always. I’m always messing up. I’m I’m a. Real a clutch. I’m real idiot. I’m not, I’m. I’m disappearing psychologically. I’m I no longer hold authenticity with myself. I’m just saying stuff to get me through that situation. This is pattern we see with. With so many men.

Ilyas

And. I I really appreciate the way you frame that in terms of shame making you want to disappear because I think that’s something that I mean anyone can relate to of like any gender.

Ilyas

I do think that that shame feeling of like. Not wanting to be there wanting to like you said disappear isn’t just contained within masculinity and so. One one question I’d have is I know that like. If we were to give like a fair look at, like a critique of, like, masculinity. It’s often put in contrast with femininity, and when we’re talking about, like traditional masculinities or hegemonic masculinities or whatever kind of words we put to it, it often kind of like others and diminishes, especially like feminine or or queer traits. And so. So when we’re talking about being able to form this emotional integrity and this dignity and the sense of self compassion. Where? Where do you draw the line between like? Being able to talk about like this being kind of masculine versus feminine or is there like, does that enter into the conversation or all or is it just like you’re a human, you have emotions and like, we’re all kind of trying to figure this out.

Rick Goodwin

Yeah. So I’m gonna say if it’s coming from the therapist or the group facilitator or what have you, it tends to be more. Tends to be taken in as an intellectual exercise, not saying it. Doesn’t have a. Role, but it’s going to be limited in the scope now when with the guys organically reflect on their life and and say yeah, and this is how my father would carry himself. Or, you know, I I remember an early age having a very painful lesson about about this. Then we’re getting at it. Or bottom up. Then you know kind of top down. Uh. So you know in in the biz, we want to create a, a, a climate in the room. To allow men who are experiencing safety and trust with their fellow guys who may consider as brothers. To be that free to disclose. And and this is where things really rock in terms of incorporating kind of the aspects of gender, but not as a intellectual exercise.

Ilyas

Yeah. So if I’m hearing you right, it’s it’s not a process of labeling. It’s a process of connecting and it’s a process of kind of growing and so not kind of assigning that to any gender or any kind of sort of expression aside from like the men or the men in the group are just trying to figure out like. What’s what they can do to live better lives and how they can connect with those around them and not getting caught up in like traditional sorts of views of like calling name calling or. Whatever else may go on that would perpetuate that dream cycle and continue to make the man feel like he can’t live up to those expectations of, like traditional masculinity.

Rick Goodwin

Mm-hmm. No. Well, shame is, you know, universal emotion and people of all genders certainly may may well experience shame. We know that there’s an element of conventional masculinity, though, because of the impossible standards it holds that most guys, most of the time, are not going to meet. And and if that’s being their lived experience, then they’re going to have. A vulnerability because they’re going to be shame prone. Just from having the. Find gender if you want that. But that experience, along with shame that may come out of being abused as a kid or other painful experiences. Then then it becomes just so big they in the therapeutic discussion.

Ilyas

Yeah, and it it does seem like the the core of like. Expressions that aren’t helpful of masculinity come from that shame is that. Would you, would you say that’s kind of like the that main emotion that can be enacted in ways that? Like are not helpful for the man himself. For those around him or like the kind of society at large.

Rick Goodwin

Yeah. Now it probably would be helpful if we moved into a concrete example of what you just said, so. Let’s talk about, you know, and again, just from my background, I’m I’m familiar. With men’s experiences of trauma. OK, so let’s talk about a guy. Who? In his background, there was abuse of some form and physical sexual we focus now more on the trauma than we do on those actual experiences, but. OK, So what do we know of of? Of men who’ve experienced abuse as children, well, they’re not any different than you and I. They’ve all been exposed to conventional masculinity and the codes of behavior assigned to that, so that, you know, take that as a given. Well, we know that emotions are not well formulated with boys, they’re. You know, we were, we’re told that we can anger is a pretty. You know, accepted emotion, but the more vulnerable emotions, the more difficult emotions. You know. Insecurity, jealousy, fear, hopelessness. These are harder for men because, again, our upbringing doesn’t really compel us to learn that maybe it does with girls, but not as guys. OK, so we’ve got anger is kind of a bit of a go to emotion. Just from our gender coding, but the abuse experience creates all sorts of emotional dynamics. Yeah, big fear. Big rage. You know, the trauma response. So. So if we’re talking about the trauma response, I mean the OR component of that is emotional dysregulation and they’re. They’re bouncing off the walls. They’re they’re the mood swings up the Yang Yang so. Now let’s talk about, well, what happens in situations they have domestic abuse. And it may start from something as simple as. Couple in the morning and who made the coffee? Well, the coffee kind of got great that day. And so the fellow says coffee stocks and. His partner says next time you make it. Got an argument. Now, if he’s from a if he’s got Houston his background, we call him shame prone. Shame is going to be a really go to emotion for him. So as he’s now arguing with his partner about coffee or whatever, if Shane Lowe is just building and building and building, it’ll be very quick for. It will not be rational, but it’s going to be that. And what we know is with people who have especially shame being that kind of master emotion, there’s a certain breaking point. And here’s where we can talk about the psychological notion of projection.

Rick Goodwin

That this shame, which is this essential sense of badniks I’m bad. I’m stupid. I’m no good, I’m damaged. And there’s this argument with their partner. At a certain stage, the projection goes on and now he. Cheese. Of his partner. All the bad Ness that he’s holding within him. The bad Ness of stupidity. Now projection is not a conscious choice. And yet people do it every day. Uh. And what happens in a shame projection now under the partner is that. Well, there’s 22 elements to it. One is, we call, considered a shame free holiday. Or that fellow again, shame is almost a 24/7 emotion. And yet at this peak of projection and all of the baldness is now held by the partner. Well, they’re the ones that are stupid. They’re the they’re the, you know, no good idiot. And that allows him to say or do whatever it takes because he’s feeling. Entitled to do that. Because they’re they’re the bad ones and he’s in the good. So the shame free holiday. Comes into play. The the the rage is now projected. On to the partner. He’s entitled to him. Now what we know about projection is it only lasts a certain long length of time. You know minutes. Before it starts to degrade and well, and he’s back to the immediate situation that here’s a shame prone guy. And he’s now just being abusive too, when he loves so the he’s just swamp now with guilt on top of the shame. And he’s doing his best to backpedal. I’m so sorry. I won’t do that again. I’m going to go seek help. I won’t drink. You know, here’s the present. Let’s just forget about. So if we take this aspect of male psychology, we can explain a number of. Out there. And possibly engage with men in a way that might even be more effective than what this conventionally offered to men in their communities.

Ilyas

Thank you. I think that is a huge like. Way to call in a bunch of people into the conversation is just the way that you framed it and I want to make a quick pitch on your behalf for the the five minute healing videos that you’ve done. I I think they’re incredible. I’ve watched them all. They’re definitely worth a look and and I wanted to kind of end on.

Rick Goodwin

Yes.

Ilyas

And one kind of question when? If you had one piece of advice for either the men you were just talking about in that situation or kind of any man who’s looking to create a more helpful version of their masculine expression for themselves, for their loved ones, for their community, like, what would you tell them? What would it be?

Rick Goodwin

Ohh, another good and big question. I might suggest just the spelling out the three elements of. Motion. You know it’s important for you to be honest with yourself. It’s important for you to take responsibility for how you’re holding yourself in this world. And uh. And life is a lot sweeter when you’re in connection with people and holding them distant. And if any of those elements seem to be problematic for you. Is, you know the answers do not lie and staying isolated. The answer is line connection. And it would be good at this time to. Employee Guide, Fellow Traveler if you’re talking about men in the circle, that’s a whole circle full of fellow travelers. Because you shouldn’t be on your own on this one and and in terms of effectiveness. You’ll get a lot farther. When you’re with people you know there, there’s a they’re all saying. You travel fastest when you travel alone. You travel farther when you’re with people. And I would probably conclude on that.

Ilyas

Thank you, Rick. This has been an incredible conversation. I’ve learned a lot and I really want to say thank you on behalf of us and the listeners for for your.

Rick Goodwin

Insights. I appreciate the discussion. Thanks for involving me.