Ilyas

So welcome back to yes. Allman. Today’s guest is Lucretia. I’m lucretia. Can you tell us a little bit about yourself?

Lucrezia
Sure. So my name is Lucretia Espanola and I am the founder and CEO of Vista.

Ilyas
And just as a disclaimer, we’ve been talking for the past eight months or so as I’ve been kind of working here and it’s been a really amazing experience and. Today, we’re going to talk a little. About how you’ve kind of positioned yourself in this space and all of the great work that you’ve done. And so just to start off, can you tell us a little bit about that? Like how do you position yourself in the gender based violence space?

Lucrezia
Sure. And yes, it’s been great to have you part of the team, Elias, and I’m really excited about this podcast series that we’ve been able to support and that you’ve been able to host and and thank you for having me as. The guest. So to answer your question, To answer your question. I see myself and approach the work as a survivor, a researcher, a technologist, and as a social entrepreneur. I understand gender based violence from multiple points of view. I understand it. First and foremost, from the point of view of a survivor. I’m one of the 95% of individuals that have experienced gender based violence and never reported it or soft professional help. I understand it from the point of view of a researcher. Since 2,017, I’ve been conducting primary and secondary research into all forms of gender based violence, in person and online. I’ve been fortunate enough to work with some fantastic researchers from the University of British Columbia, and to date we’ve published 2 academic and Peer reviewed papers. I’ve also spoken with some fantastic researchers with decades of experience, where they provided me with information on best practices from around the world. I also approach the work from the point of view of a technologist. I know what it’s like to build conscientious technology that supports survivors and their individual journeys towards healing into alternative forms of justice. I also understand what it’s like to build trauma informed practices and anti oppressive practices into that technology while adhering to strict privacy and data protection protocols. And finally, I understand it as a social entrepreneur. I know what it’s like to build and fundraise for an organization that is dedicated to the eradication of rape culture.

Ilyas
Yeah, you’ve been in a lot of different spaces and a lot of different kind of pieces of expertise have been brought together through your work here and. I know when we were talking about this episode, we came up with a little a little kind of tag line, so to speak, and we were talking about you gotta start with why frame the where learn the how build the what and The Who will benefit. And so to kind of follow that. Like, why did you take on something as big as ending rape culture as your vision for, for Vesta and for this kind of social enterprise?

Lucrezia
Wow, that is a big question. Well, I think that for me, it started with. You know, as you said, it’s it’s, I actually started it at the end was who did I want to benefit. And then I started looking backwards and saying, OK, well, if I want to really help survivors, what I realized is that it was a bigger question. And the bigger question was rape culture. That was the motivating factor. Looking back, when I came to this space was around 2016. I started having an idea around rape culture and what shocked me was the political discourse that was happening in Canada and the United States around women. Around that there was some big profile cases both in Canada and the United States and what shocked me was the pervasiveness of. Of it. Of the pervasiveness of gender based violence and the language that was being used and how dismissed women were and how dismissed their claims were. And I thought the bigger issue was how do we address rape culture? And that’s where it started. The idea started germinating and from there it started to take a snowball effect.

Ilyas
Yeah, I know. We’ve talked about in previous episodes of this podcast, sort of how men perpetuate and are involved in rape culture, very kind of deeply. And in that vein, you mentioned that you were, you got into this space and you were looking at certain high profile case and cases in Canada and the US so like, is Canada unique in the gender based? Space. Is there something that like separates us from the rest of the world, and if so, like? So and if not like what are kind of some of the more global patterns of gender based violence that we’re facing?

Lucrezia
Right. Well, I wouldn’t actually say that Canada is unique in any way. I think that might surprise some people. When I actually started my research early on, before it was actually real research and I put real, if you will, in quotes was I was just talking to friends and family and people that I came across. And what I started to realize is people thought that this was something that happened somewhere else. No one, unless that they were a victim or a survivor themselves. Unless they worked in this space, whether they were in some way either counselors or whether they were in law enforcement, whether they worked in hospitals. Those individuals understood that sexual assaults and rape and gender based violence in general happens here in Canada, whereas the general population felt that this was something, oh, this happens elsewhere. This isn’t something that happens here. This does not happen in our schools. This does not happen. In our workplaces, this happened somewhere else and that was to me quite surprising to realize that there was this lack of knowledge, if you will. And early on, when I was looking at. How can I help? How can I make an impact in this space? I was told over and over again that technology had no space here, that this was a people problem that required a people based solution and I was also told that it was an awareness and an education problem. And then me too happened. And once me too happened. It was like, well, you can’t become more aware you. It really went around the world and rebounded around the world. And so going back to some of those people and saying, well, OK, now we’re aware now what what’s the next step?

Ilyas
And you mentioned a lot of people would say it’s like this doesn’t happen here. It doesn’t happen in our schools, our workplaces and in our backyard, so to speak and.

Ilyas
I know that like for gender based violence, there are many women who are kind of directly affected by it and you you said yourself you’re a survivor. And so I’m wondering, given that the technology space is like a very kind of male dominated space, like is there, is there a difference in recognitions of like the broad nature of this problem in different spaces is there? Like an area that, like it, was more surprising to people that like, oh, oh, wow. Like, this actually happens or.

Lucrezia
I don’t know if it was really an oh wow. I think that there were certain places where people traditionally or think that, you know, as people got more educated as society became more educated as the media started picking up more and more of these stories and it became something where at one point you couldn’t turn on the news. Still, to this day, actually, four out of five days, probably if you turn on the news. There is something about a sexual assault, a sexual harassment, inappropriate behavior at some space or another, over the last few years, we’ve heard about it in sports. Here we’re hearing about it more and more. We’re hearing about it more and more now in like virtual reality spaces. We’re hearing about it in technological spaces. Right. So we’re hearing about it more then there was even two years ago we started hearing about walkouts in some of the Canadian universities because students now were protesting against the universities because they were saying the way they’re addressing gender based violence on campus. So I’m not sure it’s a surprise, but rather there’s been waves of different areas where awareness and the light is being shown on different areas where now we’re starting to see and it’s becoming more public. But frankly if you look at all these stories, all these media stories, all this. Coverage you start to realize that it is so pervasive and it’s everywhere. Some of the high profile cases where in media, in television. In film, some of them were in the business world. Some of them were in the finance world. Some of them were in the sports world. Some of them were in the military. So. I think at this day and age, I think to say that you’d be surprised to find it in a certain space. It would be really hard to say because we’ve really been seeing more light being shown on these spaces.

Ilyas
And I think that’s in large part due to like advocates and like people with lived experience and people working who really have like you said Sean, not like on this issue over the past few years. And so it is getting harder and harder to deny. And so I think in that being like building a social enterprise and working on something like eradicating.

Lucrezia
Absolutely.

Ilyas
Rape culture or ending rape culture like. How how do you start something like that? Cause I imagine there are kind of like men and women in every kind of gender who wants to, like, do something and they feel like there’s like, maybe a call to action through. Either listen to this and kind of having some. Of. Their unknown unknowns become known knowns, or whatever else may be. But. Like, how do you how do you start and what are kind of some milestones that you can say like, oh, I’m heading on the right path for this.

Lucrezia
I think there’s so many different ways to start and I can’t speak to anyone else’s journey, but I can speak to my own. And for me, it was also funny enough, it goes back to your original question was how do I locate myself in this space? And so first was I wanted to see what impact could I have? What space could I hold here and what can I bring to this experience? I looked around me and what I realized was there was some great. Individuals doing some amazing work, some great organizations that were working towards building awareness. And I realized that there was, you know, some significant activists and that we’re really doing some great work. And I realized that wasn’t quite my lane. That’s not where I felt comfortable. So where I started really looking at it was, I really wanted to look at this intersection of technology. And the reason for that. Was because I realized the pervasiveness of technology as well and realized that it’s permeated every aspect of our lives. I live in an urban center. I pre COVID would take the subway every single day. To and from. And to to and from work social gatherings everywhere I was and all I did was I looked around and every, you know, public transportation, everybody was on their phone and every cafe. Everybody is on their phone. In every instance, everybody is on their phone. And I thought here we are walking around with this technology. In our pockets and everyone is connected, everyone’s online and I. Thought well, there’s got to be a way to merge the two. How do we combat something that is so pervasive that it’s available that is happening everywhere, but yet we can use tools that are so pervasive as well and saying, well, can we then use the pervasiveness of technology to our advantage to help advocate and to help build something? So that’s where it started as a kernel, if you will, an idea. And I mean I talked about stumbling across an article actually I think it was in Wired magazine and it was an op-ed piece and I thought I don’t come from a technology perspective, but here there’s this op-ed piece that somebody who’s far more skilled than I am who said that. We have the tools, so I thought if we can start putting these tools together to help support survivors, then why don’t we? But on that path I also realize that it wasn’t just about building a technological bandit. I didn’t want to go out and just build something and say here here use this. Tool and there. Was lots of tools like most of them were panic buttons and I thought, no, that doesn’t feel right to me. And so I embarked on about two to three years of research really to start understanding that intersection of. Reporting gender based violence reporting sexual assault specifically, and the catalyst for me was that. Most people I talked to said to me, well, there’s lots of options for people to report, and if they don’t want to, it’s because they don’t want to. If they’re not reporting, it’s because they don’t want to. And I thought that didn’t ring true to me. So what really helped propel that and understand what my next action was going to be was I did the research and I found that yes, 95% of individuals globally. Don’t report gender based violence or sexual assault. And is the most under reported violent crime globally. But then I stumbled upon some research out of. I believe it was the University of Michigan. Who said that 85% of people disclose? So I thought, wait a minute, 85% of people talk to somebody. And they tell someone. So what happens between that 85%? Who talked to somebody and come forward to tell somebody and the 5% that reports. So what’s happening there if we can interrupt that cycle and interrupt that first disclosure, what’s the one place that people turn to? So I found that 85% of people talked to some. And then I also found out that through our own focus groups and research that we were doing realized that almost everyone we spoke to. Turn to the Internet before they even talk to somebody. So I thought that’s the point where we can intervene. That’s the point of intervention. That’s where technology can have an impact. And that’s what started the journey.

Ilyas
And I think a big piece of that is questioning that traditional assumption that like it’s a, it’s a people problem and needs a people solution and like we even talked about in one of the previous episodes, the prevalence of technology facilitated sexual violence. And so like the the people there are like online people and I mean. Essentially, most people nowadays have some sort of online presence, whether that’s through like social media or having pictures shared or whatever else it may be. And so it makes sense that technology is like a big piece of the the solution, even in that space, and even for people I know you’ve mentioned in our previous past conversations. Like the way people disclose or who people disclose, who plays a big role in, like how their experience of living with that disclosure goes afterwards too, right?

Lucrezia
Absolutely. I mean just to that, some of our research I’d have to actually go find the source of this, but I did see something that said that the individuals that are disclosing to friends or family like informal disclosures is what they call them, right? The friends and family. There’s a large percentage of individuals. Say that if they had, their first disclosure is an informal disclosure to a friend or family. They have an overwhelmingly positive disclosure, so to me that says that a lot of the work that activism is and the activists are doing, that it’s working because people are starting to understand how to be allies, and they’re helping support their friends and. Family unfortunately, the research also shows that those that are having more formal disclosures are having a negative outcome or report that being a negative experience. So we realize that there’s the work that needs to be done. So, but going back to even some of the question you asked earlier is that I still think that technology, we can’t take people out of the the equation. Technology is a tool. It is not the solution. It is a tool that put into the hands of individuals, can help enhance the supports, right? So that’s what I’m looking at. That’s what we’re building is a tool that facilitates and it helps the individuals, but it also helps the organizations that are meant to support survivors as well.

Ilyas
And in that vein, like with this tool like, how do you define success with a tool? So is it the tool is implemented? Is it the tool? Works in the way it’s supposed to. Is it that like someone got a benefit from the tool and like, is there a way to quantify that? Is it more qualitative? Like what? What is success in this space, especially with kind of the venture that you’ve gone through?

Lucrezia
You know, that’s a really big question and and one I actually ponder quite a bit, right, because how do you find to find success in this space? So for me and what I’ve kind of landed on is a few things is one were we able to build a a tool? Yes, we that people will use and that can have positive benefits. And to me the answer is yes. What we did is we build a web application. We call it vest, the community. We implemented it in Kingston ON. We implemented with partners with the local police services. We incorporated with the Kingston police services as well as local sexual assault center to make it available to people within the Kingston area. Later on, we also had Queens. University come on board. So that means students can also use the application. So another great milestone was not just bringing we have those are two, three great milestones right. There is actually bring together services that don’t usually collaborate and individuals can access all from one place. So just rolling that out was a large milestone having individuals use the platform. To connect with law enforcement to collect with services, that was another large milestone. We also had milestones which had really net positive impacts. We saw individuals that used our platform to document their experience and also to connect with law enforcement. We actually saw charges laid. And we’ve now seen that certain individuals that have accessed our services that have gone through charges have been laid and now their cases are before the courts. We also have others that did not opt for that Ave. and actually have reached out to connect with local support services. That’s also a large milestone. So all of these to me are successes. They’re all these are huge milestones because what I want to be able to do is impact an individual’s life positively. But I don’t want to determine, nor would I want to build any kind of technologies that predetermines what success means for that individual. Is that I want to build and have been able to build an opportunity and a tool that allows individuals to choose their own paths to decide which path they want to follow. And give them the time and space to do that. And that’s what we’ve been able to do.

Ilyas
And what really pops to mind there for me is just like empowerment and. Like the tool, as a way of facilitating. Giving power to people who have had some of their kind of autonomy taken from them is that, like a fair kind of reflection.

Lucrezia
Absolutely. I mean for us, one of the things that we’re looking at is really everybody’s voice. Matters. Everybody’s everybody’s experience matters. So that’s the first thing that we want to do is give individuals who don’t feel that they have choice or they felt that their choices were taken away. We want to be able to show them that they have multiple choices and that they can choose to actually access any of those. Resources. So we put at their disposable a a tool that they can document their experience. They can collect and preserve evidence if that’s what they want to do. If they want to connect with local services, if they just want to collect with online services, we’ve created a resource library that gives information everything from mental health resources all the way up to legal options and to whether they’re in the workplace or in their schools. And they can. Access all this information or if they want to try, we’ve got healing rooms to help people. Just. Process some of their experience in their own time and their own words. So we allow individuals to have multiple options and to choose their own path and give them back if they feel that their voice has been taken away. My hope is that by using our tools and our resources that we help them regain that voice.

Ilyas
And in in that vein, so I know. In one of the previous episodes, we talked about how men often uphold. Discourses around rape culture and. Like everyone’s voice matters in more way than one as well. Right? Like in, in perpetuating this system and being able to, like, give perpetrators like a. A leave of accountability or whatever else it may be, and so. Bringing it to men and how men can kind of engage in this space that’s traditionally been kind of like. Female focused and the men’s voices haven’t kind of been as strong. What do you think the role of men is given you’re kind of like? Positionality and how can they use their own positionality to have an effect? Maybe not to the extent that you have, but in their in their communities and their families and their kind of day-to-day lives.

Lucrezia
I think men play a significant role. I mean, one of the things that I’ve always found fascinating in this space is that. When I first approached it and I came in and I also feel that I’m a little bit still of an outsider, even though I’ve been in this space for many years now. Is that one of the things that first struck me was everything felt so siloed, and there was there were these dichotomies everywhere, so it was. Men or women, you were either feminist or you’re sexist. You either follow the law enforcement criminal Justice Ave. or you seek therapeutic or counseling support. And so then there was and I couldn’t understand even before you mentioned, you know, virtual reality. It either is in real life, something that happens in person versus what happens in virtual reality. And I never understood why there had to be this dichotomies or this division. And it’s like sexual assault and gender based violence is a layered and complex problem to solve. So that means the solution must be multifaceted, intersectional and comprehensive. So that was a long way of getting it back and saying, well, men play a significant role because first of all, I don’t want to assume that all men. Are offenders or in some way perpetrating right? There are many men that are wonderful that are allies. However, sometimes is that whether men or women, what happens is people who think they are the best intentioned individuals can actually be perpetuating stereotypes. Without even realizing they are, or actually could be as helpful as they think they’re being and their intentions are good, are actually creating harm, and I guess I can give an example. And you know one I’ll give an example with a female friend of mine is we were having this conversation many years ago when I was starting Vesta and asked why. Why would I do this? And so I started also talking about statistics and saying, well, one in four Canadian women will be sexually assaulted, 95% don’t tell someone. And that person responded to me and said that’s impossible. I was like, I don’t. And I said why I said I don’t know anyone that’s ever been assaulted. I said yes, you do. It’s like, no, I don’t. It’s like, yes, you do. So even in our and this person’s dear friend of mine, right, never would it have crossed her mind? Because in her experience, would you know, she just did not experienced that personally? There’s also men that are in similar situations. You know, when we look at how anybody can be supported. Have I think there’s been in many, you know, in my past work experience for example, I worked in financial services for many years. I worked on Bay St. for those that you know, our Canadian know where Bay Street is and for anyone else that’s listening outside of the world. Maybe Wall Street is more well known. It’s kind of like their Canada is equivalent to Wall Street. So it’s very male dominated. Then I went into a technology space where very mild dominated as well. Lots of men there that I would say that they consider themselves allies and they are feminists and they support women. But there’s a lot of things that are said that are done that are very problematic. And even though their intentions are good. They don’t. They’re actually perpetuating certain stereotypes and actually perpetuating. Harm. So if we don’t draw those individuals into the conversation and have them be part of that conversation, and that is why I was so excited about having this podcast and this podcast series, well, I think it’s so important. Is because let’s talk about this. These dichotomies that are out there. Let’s talk about some of these examples. Let’s talk about how we can be supportive and let’s talk about how we can bring people together to address this.

Ilyas
And let’s assume there are some of those men listening right now. Like, what do you think it’s important for them to hear?

Lucrezia
I think the most important thing is, is really to listen. If someone does come to you.

Lucrezia
And say they’re concerned about something or something happened to them. Give them the space to talk. And not assume or presume to know. Even if you think you’re being helpful, sometimes you’re silence. Just let them hold that space and let them speak. On the other hand, I would also have them to pause. In the sense of before responding or even in a general setting, you know when you’re in a workplace and you see somebody that you know, traditionally you might think, oh, they’re just being picked on or you know, that person is just uses certain language, you know, they’re they’re an older generation. They don’t know any.

Lucrezia
Right. Even if you don’t feel comfortable and not saying every man should confront another man. That maybe is using problematic language, but maybe just turning around to your coworker and say yeah, I heard what he said. That wasn’t cool. Is there anything you want to talk about? Even just showing that little bit of support and saying I got it, I acknowledged it. I saw it. And I see you. That could be that could change the world. Just something as simple as that.

Ilyas
I see you is probably. One of the most powerful things that can be said, at least in my mind, cause. I think a lot of the time people don’t feel seen and that can tie into shame, and we talked about that during the last episode, but just knowing that like someone is seen and someone like is valued can make such a huge difference.

Lucrezia
Absolutely. I mean, I have so many examples.

Lucrezia
And of course, in this moment my mind is a complete blank, but I have so many examples of situations that I personally have been in where it would have been nice to have someone saying. I see you. I see that. I see what was done. Right. And in certain ways, it probably would help me see certain things before I even actually noticed.

Ilyas
Yeah, I know. Like oftentimes, I will feel kind of like the urge to jump in and be kind of like the. The clunky person who tries to make things better and doesn’t really know what they’re doing, and I think that’s something a lot of men can kind of resonate with this in, in this space, like, not really knowing what to do or how to address something or like how to be and like these sorts of conversations. And to me personally, it’s really reassuring just to hear like holding space in itself is enough. And like, just letting the person know that they’re seen. Can be like a really big thing cause. I think oftentimes there’s these huge calls to action and it can make someone feel like.

Ilyas
They’re not enough if they can’t accomplish all of these things, and yeah.

Lucrezia
Yeah. I mean in that sense, I understand that personally like because sometimes I feel that I’m not doing enough, that’s does not doing enough because I want to see big numbers, big gestures, big. You know, comes big milestones and sometimes it’s actually starting. It’s even a reminder to myself and so that’s why I repeated even to myself and I would repeat it here now for anybody that is listening. It’s not those big moments, it’s actually those small moments and those small gestures that make such a large impact, right. It’s having somebody say, hey, you stood up for me. I remembered when you did that. Right. Even on the other side, as being an ally. I will share this story is a few years ago, somebody I hadn’t seen in many, many years. I’d gone to school with this person. And we were. We were friends in, you know, childhood and, you know, in junior high, if you will. And I we’ve just lost touch and just I think it was last summer this person reached out to me and said I’m going to be in town and if you’re available I’d like to. Introduced you to my children because I it really impacted me when you were there for me. And I I’ve talked about you to my children as an example, and this thing that you did for me where when we were younger is she was in a situation and I just stood beside her and was like, I just took her side, if you will. And I stood there and she said to me. I just want my children to know you because I’ve talked about you and that blew me away because to me that was an insignificant moment in my life, in the sense of I thought it was just like oh. She was being in my mind because I didn’t have the language then or the words to describe it, but I thought this person was being in my mind, picked on and bullied and it just didn’t feel right. And so I just went to stand beside this person and literally all I did is I moved my lunch. And I sat beside them and sat with them. And. Ate lunch with them. So to me that was an insignificant moment, but it meant a big deal to them and that flabbergasted me because I never thought that small little singular thing meant so much conversely. The same thing had happened to me in that I’ve been in situations before where I found myself in a workspace at a large conference. Where?

Lucrezia
Former supervisor approached me and one of the reasons I actually left that space and that organization was because I did not. Feel safe. And here I was, this conference running into this person again, and it was so surprising to me because I did not expect them in this space. I was not emotionally prepared. And this person came into my space and hugged me. And it was such a it felt like this violation of my personal boundaries. And I was not prepared for that. And the person standing beside me who knew what the history was. But didn’t intervene because they were so taken aback. And I found what was more hurtful was that that person didn’t intervene as opposed to the the hug, if that makes sense. Of course, I’ve since worked that out and realized that it’s not that person’s fault. They were in shock themselves. They didn’t know how to react, and but we talked about. And it was like, and that person was like, I didn’t know what to do. And it was like, but you. But now you see. And now you saw. And that never happened again. And to me, that meant the world, because now it was like now you see, now you know, and thank you for having my back. Because now I’m not afraid to go into those spaces because I’m not afraid of seeing that person anymore, because I know that I have others that have my back.

Ilyas
There’s a lot to that that really resonates with me, especially given our our. The previous conversation that we had in this in this podcast series the the previous episode and it talks a lot about kind of how compassion can turn into self compassion. Which can turn into community. And those are all kind of really important things from what I can sense and not only kind of like a man’s journey to be able to, to find his place within this gender based violence space, but for anyone to be able to go through.

Ilyas
The process of learning how to like show their compassion to themselves and those around them so that they can form deeper and more meaningful bonds.

Lucrezia
Absolutely. I mean, I think even when it talks to compassion, it’s interesting as you were talking. I remembered another instance where a specific friend, a man. Really came to support me in that space and it also again let me. I felt so guilty in that space, but I realized that that his actions helped me release some of that shame and some of that fear and almost have compassion for my my younger self. So to contextualize it and to give you an example, I found myself at a party. And at this party, there was a lot of individuals from different parts. I worked for some large organizations before starting Vesta, and so that we’re multinational and we found ourselves in uh, you know in. We were at a restaurant. I think it was like a Christmas party or something like that. And there was a former coworker, somebody from a completely different office in a different part of the country. And I wasn’t even part of the conversation. I only found out about later, and they were just talking as coworkers do, about different coworkers who have. You’ve talked to, who have you worked with. And this friend of mine, who was also a former boss of mine actually said, you know, he mentioned my name amongst some others. And this other gentleman said. And I’ll use gentleman loosely as a term said oh. Lucretia. I’ve heard of her. And. So he went on to recount a story that he had heard about me. And this former boss of mine looked at him and said. I don’t know that I know Lucretia. And I don’t think that story is true. And and the person kept insisting. But I heard it from. And he’s like, I don’t know what he said to you. But I know Lucretia. And that and I suggest you don’t repeat that story again. I know her. I believe her when she says nothing happened. I believe Lucretia. I only found out about that because somebody overheard that conversation and told me that that person. Had stood up for me. I was so thankful. Because. Those are the kinds of actions that really speak volumes, right, because I wasn’t there. I it was being something that was being said, if you will, behind my back, about me about some action, some story that had been created. And here was somebody who stopped it. That was a clear action. That was definitely someone being an ally and supporting me in that time. And in that space, that also freed me because it helped, again, not just to have. I was so thankful for that person intervening, but it also I felt like I shrunk within myself when I first heard I was like, what do you mean? There’s these stories or this thing had been said about me and people are perpetuating it and repeating them over and over. Again. And so I just shrunk with it myself, and I think that’s something that actually was discussed in one of the earlier podcasts. Right and. So I felt this shame for something I hadn’t even done. But I had this huge amount of shame, and now, having heard somebody else defend me, helped me to kind of let go of that and realize it wasn’t even about me. I shouldn’t be ashamed of something I did not even do, and to have then compassion for that person who shrunk right and say, OK, well, now that I. I know about that. I actually could. Almost move forward if you will and actually have create a safer space for myself and say OK, no, I can reclaim my own space. I can be confident in this space because. I’m OK somebody else also has my back and it helps me regain my voice. It helped me regain my confidence and also gave me compassion for myself.

Ilyas
And I know that’s been in different spaces called different things like it’s been called like fierce compassion to be able to stand up for someone and, like, take on A cause or to defend someone you care about who’s close to you. It’s also been something that I mean for for men, for kind of men who hold more traditional beliefs. Is something that fits in with that kind of like framework too. Like if there’s someone you you know and you care about and who’s near to you and you you have the chance to stand up for them, that’s something worthwhile and something worth doing. And I know in the the first episode of this podcast we talked about masculinity as a fire and how that fire needs to be used to like to warm those who. You love and who you’re close to. And then like you can use it to be able to like defend. Like from. Arm I guess. And. So as you’re saying that, yeah.

Lucrezia
Absolutely. And I think that, you know, we can talk about it and like you said, the sometimes the language that gets used, I love that reference. I love the visual of that and think of it as a fire that can that can burn bright, but it could also warm. Right. And extend and I think that that’s something that when you’re a a man or you’re in a position of power or in some way you can influence someone positively. I mean that could have such a significant impact on those immediately around you. So one-on-one, right, like that particular person did with me right at that moment also that person was actually a leader of people and that showed that his leadership team, that that’s what leadership looks like, that’s what I. The standard I hold myself to that would be the standard I hold those around me. So that just it rolls and it multiplies so that also. Then when I look at it as somebody who’s fire burned or burns right. Who has a lot of agency? Quite a lot of power, quite a lot of privilege that could be used to extend to others, right. So I love that that imagery of using that fire to warm others.

Ilyas
Yeah, and I think. I mean to avoid reifying kind of masculinity in and of itself, I think the other example that you talked about is, like, very strong, too, right? Like it’s not. It’s being able to be there and hold space for someone which we don’t need to use kind of like necessarily labels of like masculine or feminine or whatever else. But it’s just like. Different ways that people. Men in this case, or whomever else, can hold space or be there for for someone who’s close to them. And I think that that is the basis of forming a community. And with that in mind like. What what aspects of like being a man do you think are are helpful for making changes in in this space in particular so with like? The the different kinds of men I know it’s a big question and there isn’t kind of one type of men or one type of way of being manly or have of having manhood, but what do you think are some ways in which men can use their either masculine or themselves to to be able to affect change? In this space.

Lucrezia
Right. Well, actually, when we first started, when you and I first started talking about this and even this podcast, to be quite honest, is I was and felt that I felt qualified to answer that question because I thought, well, I am a woman, I identify as a woman and. I know it it from what I feel my lived experience is and that was one of the reasons why I was so supportive and really enthusiastic about having this podcast series because I wanted to learn from others. And that’s why I actually referred back to people who know even better than I do, right, and whether it’s live, lived experience from men themselves, whether it’s experts that are looking in this space and researching this space, one thing that really struck me, for example, was the episode that you recorded with. Doctor Jeffrey and the conversation around consent and how we talk about consent and how we teach consent to me, that was. That was significant. That was impactful, right? So it was understanding, you know, one of the things that that she said was that there is so much nuance to consent, right? And that the way we’re teaching it is sometimes maybe we can teach it in a better way, right. Because there’s a lot of things that we understand. Nuance, but somehow that seems to get lost in the conversation around consent. So when you ask about men and how they can respond, again, that’s nuance. I think that from what I’ve seen and what I’ve learned and what I’ve researched and again from my own lived experience, is that there is no one right answer. And that I would think that the first question like it you know, we went back to, I almost feel like I’m repeating myself but to. Give space. First of all, to be open to the fact that. Gender based violence happens. We also want to make sure that we’re also holding space for, you know, we talk a lot about gender based violence and we talk a lot about violence against women and girls. But let us not forget that gender based violence actually impacts all genders. So let us not assume that when we’re talking that this only impacts women and girls, right? And so first, there’s that. It’s those small things. It’s hold space for that, that it can happen to anyone. Then it’s about if somebody does. You know, we’ve heard everything. You see something say something. It doesn’t have to be big. It can just be like something small like here’s an example. This happened on the subway, actually a couple of years ago is. A young woman was. Being verbally attacked. On the subway, a beautiful young woman who obviously was getting quite a bit of attention. From another person on the subway. And. You can tell that she was getting very uncomfortable. She wasn’t engaging, she was trying to ignore the person, and she had a book out and she just kept reading her book and trying to ignore that person. But that person kept getting louder and louder and louder. There was a lot of people on that subway that could have intervened. And at one point. All that somebody did. Another a young man who was standing there. He didn’t say a word. All he did was he stood up, he shifted and he blocked that individual who was yelling and trying to yell things and get her attention. He stood in front of the young woman as the two other of his friends. So they formed a physical barrier without touching anyone. They just shifted position and blocked that individuals view. That young girl now was. She had a block. She had three people standing between her and that other person. Eventually that person just stopped talking and he got off the train. They didn’t have to say anything. They didn’t do any. What they did was a small act. They shifted over 2 feet and formed the physical barrier between her and the person who was yelling at her. We don’t know if that person would have escalated. I’m glad it didn’t. But I know I saw her look up and she thanked them. So it was. It was a small thing to do. And it was incredibly gratifying to see and.

Ilyas
Yeah. And like you mentioned before, like the small things aren’t. Really, that small at the end of the day. Because that could have been something a lot bigger it could have. Been something that kind of turned into something else and. Even if it was. Just the way that it was for a longer period of time and no one stood up. That’s a reference point that that young woman now. As or would have had about, like her safety in the world.

Lucrezia
Exactly. And I mean, that’s one thing is they never want anyone to put themselves in danger. But seeing that it also was a lesson to me and saying, well, I could do. That as well. Right. So I can stand up. I don’t have to say anything, but I can stand in front. I can stand in solidarity. With her. I could help stand in front and try to create a physical barrier. I’m not a large person, but it’s still a space, right? So absolutely. It’s even small acts of compassion and small acts of empathy and of community.

Ilyas
Yeah. And I do think all those go together. UM. I do think that if if you can kind of get in touch with that inner sense of like emotionality and compassion, that amazing things can happen. And I know I’ve learned through this, this series the different ways in which. Like men in particular can play a role. In using another masculinity or kind of other parts of themselves. To to make a difference and. I think it’s also important to recognize that like. Like you said before, there isn’t just one way of doing things. It’s not that you need to start a fight with someone or start a confrontation or. Do something that, like, escalates things, cause in the end that is kind of like reinforcing patterns sometimes of like. Types of masculinities that can cause harm and with the the. The overarching theme of this kind of podcast of trying to find ways in which men can express themselves. Through like the lens of being able to have, like a healthy sense of self and a way that’s helpful for themselves and their communities. I think it has become ever more important to recognize that like. Men. Can affect other men and the others. The other people around them, the other genders, whomever else. But specifically like with our interactions with like other men, like, there’s a big role that we can play in changing the scripts. And changing the expectations. And changing our own kind of processing of the world so that we can hold that space, we can have that compassion. We can show those emotions, we can have that kind of emotional integrity. To be able to connect to ourselves and those around us. And at the end of the day, help out the people who need help, because I think that is a very human thing to want to do is to want to be of service or want to help. But. I know me entering into this space. I didn’t know what that meant. I didn’t know what to do. I didn’t. You know, even like how to do it and I have a background in kind of social work, the social services, all that sort of stuff and the fact that I wasn’t entirely sure of what to do. I mean, I think speaks volumes to what can be expected of kind of the the average man who hasn’t kind of gone through the same sort of schooling or. Education or kind of work that I’ve done, and so hopefully with this podcast, we can really emphasize that like all men can play a role and the more men that can kind of influence each other. The more we can kind of reach a critical mass, where? There. What it is to be a man? Whether you kind of accept that kind of binary or spectrum or however you want to frame it, what it is for someone to identify as a man doesn’t have to be. I identified as like. In problematic ways, or in ways that can can hurt and that people can really use their identity. To help and to create good and to create connections and to create compassion and to. Find within themselves. The space to hold others in their core as well.

Lucrezia
Absolutely. I think that was very well said.

Ilyas
Thank you. Yeah, this has been an incredible learning journey. I thank you so much for facilitating this. I mean, this kind of whole thing happening and something the listeners probably don’t know is that there was a different iteration of this podcast that we had been looking into where it would be a bit more kind of like a survivors’s journey through the system. And I’d be interviewing people on that lens and. You and I had a conversation, and we really came to the decision that like it wasn’t something I necessarily felt comfortable with and you wanted it to be. You wanted this podcast to be something that we could take and. Use as something good and if I didn’t feel that I was comfortable bringing that forward that like it wasn’t necessarily the right place to go and so. Being able to have this podcast and the iteration that it is. Is in large part to due to your kind of like come compassion and understanding and changing routes from that initial kind of. Framework that we had.

Lucrezia
Absolutely. Well, I realized that as we were talking, as you said, the whole point was really to understand how could we do good, how can we help support? And realizing that this was one way to even demonstrate and go and bring something into the world, that’s saying, you know, I thought there was huge power in that. First of all, that you came to me and said, you know, this is not, I don’t feel comfortable in this path. I have certain questions of my own and then realizing. How powerful that was. Because it’s really important and like you said, if someone comes with it with your level of experience and your level also of training and saying if you’re not even sure how to locate yourself within this space, how to be that kind of ally, how to support survivors, how then to be that larger voice for good? Well, then, it almost felt like a responsibility at that point saying absolutely, let’s look at this from a different perspective and this is what we need to bring to the world right now. And it’s really important that we bring. People together and we have these conversations because like I said, we can’t solve an issue that is so multi layered and so complex if we don’t have a larger conversation. If we don’t bring more and more people to the table, if we just keep this isolated in academia, or we just keep it isolated in the criminal justice system, or we keep it isolated in social work, or we keep it isolated in, you know, counseling and therapeutic responses. It has to be all of those things, and all of those people and all of us, and I include all of us saying everyone, we’re all part of our society. We’re all part of our communities, is that, you know, my goal is really to try to have a positive impact in the world at that individual level. So. Any single person who wants to seek out support and doesn’t know where to go. And doesn’t know where that first point of contact is or afraid of having lost their voice. I want to be there for that. I also want to be there to have an impact on the organizations that are there and give them tools to be able to adequately and comprehensively respond to disclosures of sexual assault. Right. And I think that that’s the only way that then we can make a larger impact on society. And that’s how we then start addressing rape culture. Right is if we do it just one person, one organization, one community at a time, but then that can snowball and grow.

Ilyas
Yeah, I think that. The fact that we’ve had these conversations and that we’ve been able to. To start something like this, at the very least, a conversation or two, it shows the power of just kind of talking and being able to be open and being able to form community and being able to form connections. And and not all men will have the the same kind of access to to the guests that we’ve had on this show is as I have. But I think one big take away I’ve had from pretty much all the guests that I’ve talked to is that. Being able to have these conversations with the other men in your life is. Important. And it will make a difference. And especially have her after having listened to, like, hopefully these five episodes. They they’ll have a better understanding of like what it is to be a man within this space and how they can use that to to really. Warm those around them.

Lucrezia
Mm-hmm. And if there’s one thing I would actually leave. People to ponder and think about is that sometimes I still find myself in spaces where people question the pervasiveness of gender based violence, and specifically men more than women. And I’ve been in spaces now where people like it can’t be. It can’t. Be everywhere. It can’t be that and their answer is always similar to what one of my friends had said to me. Well, I don’t know anyone. So it can’t be and I actually push back and I say to them. Ask your wife, Sister, mother, cousin, friend. Just ask them. Because just because they didn’t come to you or just because they didn’t come and disclose it to you, doesn’t mean it didn’t happen. So even that small question is hey has something like this ever happened to you? And say. If it ever has, or if it ever does, no, you can come talk to me and I’m here to listen. That would be huge.

Ilyas
Yeah, and. I think that’s a great place to leave it off. So. Thank you so much for for talking with me today and talking with everyone who’s listening and. Yeah. We really appreciate everything that you brought to the conversation that you brought to the world and that you’ve kind of facilitated in this this whole series.

Lucrezia
Thank you so much. It’s been great.